The Future of Work Podcast

Good afternoon and welcome to our ILC Lunchtime Conversation.

This is part of the ILO's Future of Work podcast series,

broadcasting live from the International Labour Conference in Geneva.

So you know that each day we explore a key topic of the world of work,

with guests from around the globe who share their insights

and their own experiences.

Today on World Environment Day

we're tackling a critical question:

How can governments ensure the shift to greener economies,

which is fair, creates jobs and leaves no one behind?

A just transition isn't just, about climate action.

It's about workers.

It's about communities.

And social justice.

It means decent jobs, protected livelihoods,

and real social dialogue as economies transform.

So today we'll dive into four key issues.

Number one, how to turn those green transitions into quality jobs?

Why social dialogue must drive climate planning.

The ILO's role in strengthening, national climate plans.

And of course, what's next on the global stage?

So joining us today, four amazing guests, making this happen.

Let me start with Moustapha Kamal Gueye,

the ILO Director of Action Programme on Just Transitions.

We have next to him Mrs.

Maíra Lacerda, you're the Head of of the Special Advisory

for International Affairs at the Ministry of Labour

and Employment from Brazil.

Coming here, Mr. Ali Aybey

Director-General of Foreign Affairs and EU at

the Ministry of Labour and Social Security in Türkiye.

And Mrs. Soha

Tharwat, environment expert from the mission,

Permanent Mission of Egypt, to the UN here in Geneva.

Welcome to this lunch conversation.

Let's get straight to it.

Let's see what a just transition looks like in practice.

Moustapha, let me start with you.

The ILO's just transition guidelines are, of course, a blueprint,

but how they are actually changing lives?

Can you give us concrete examples of where these principles

turn into real jobs or worker protection on the ground?

Thank you very much Guebray.

I first should say the ILO guidelines for just transition,

they are a sort of a blueprint that was adopted by the tripartite

constituents, representatives of governments, workers' and employers'

organizations, and importantly, last, in 2023, the International

Labour Conference endorsed these guidelines

as the reference document and basis for action.

The guidelines and the principles they embody

ensure that when countries take action to tackle climate

and environmental change, that they put job creation,

the protection of workers and their communities,

the sustainability of business assets, so that we have enterprises

that are in business and the economies that function are there,

and these are essential enablers for the climate ambition itself.

So this is now been taken up in many fora now.

Brazil in its G20 presidency led to an adoption of voluntary

principles on energy transition, taking a lot from the guidelines.

A number of countries where the ILO works, which are really

at the forefront of the transition to sustainability,

whether it's Indonesia or South Africa in their JETP,

the Just Energy Transition Policies build on these principles,

but also countries that are highly vulnerable

but smaller economies like Somalia and others.

So these guidelines are really moving from being blueprint to a real instrument

of action from around the world, from large to small economies.

Very good. So you mentioned a couple of countries,

Maíra if I come to you,

Brazil's green economy is really booming.

We're talking about solar, biofuels, reforestation.

But we also know that growth doesn't always mean good jobs.

So what's one policy or project in Brazil that is proving green jobs

can also be decent jobs?

Thank you for asking that.

And it's a pleasure for the government of Brazil being invited

and being part of such an important conversation.

First of all, Brazil has been doing

and working on green energy for quite some time now.

We have

the majority of energy in Brazil is clean energy.

And of course, to guarantee that the workers are protected

when working in this type of energy, we have for quite some time a lot of laws,

but it's important to mention that we have established

a law on social and solidarity economy,

which are going to foster small corporations and

it's going to empower the workers through social dialogue.

And most of these workers working, they are working in agricultural

properties, small ones, or they are producing

their own (?) or something.

So we were working that they are protected in a way

that we are fostering circular economy.

So that's one of the policies we are working on right now

to protect workers and green jobs.

A great example from Brazil.

Let me turn now to Türkiye.

Obviously Türkiye's energy transition is also moving fast.

But what's one Türkiye is doing differently

to make sure workers are not just retained but,

but actually thrive in your green jobs?

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much.

And I congratulate you all for the World Environment Day.

And it is a very timely discussion, and I'm happy to be here

with you on behalf of the government of the Republic of Türkiye. And as you

mentioned, Türkiye is transforming into a more, green energy transition.

And I would like to start by giving a concrete and personal example.

My hometown is five kilometres away from the capital where we live.

And on driving home, driving my hometown, I used to see coal energy,

or atomic centres, that produce electricity.

But now, nowadays, I happen to see

windmills with solar energy fields.

So it has been transforming, very rapidly.

But this also means that this transition

will eliminate some jobs, but also create some new jobs.

So having these new jobs as decent

jobs, proper jobs and also secure jobs is quite important.

And there are some mechanisms in Türkiye that we

try to ensure that this transition is fair and just. Therefore,

it is

not a singular policy area, but it is a comprehensive reform area.

So it should be coordinated not only within the government

or within the country, but at the global level.

And the global initiatives are quite important.

So it is very good that we meet here, and we also have

the National Development Plan, which covers the following five years.

And this plan, one of the objectives of this plan is

a competitive production with green and digital transformation.

Because Türkiye as an emerging economy,

should also be competitive enough

to continue the global trade,

but at the same time these jobs should also be decent jobs.

So

finding the right tune is quite important in this regard.

Okay. So thank you for sharing

Türkiye's example and we'll talk about the international cooperation

a little bit later.

Soha Tharwat from Egypt,

let me turn to you now.

Obviously your country has a very ambitious push

in terms of renewable energy.

Can you share how Egypt is turning perhaps social protection

into real words,

real safety nets, maybe, and also the social impacts?

Good afternoon everyone.

Thank you so much for having me today with the esteemed speakers

to discuss this timely and enduring topic

definitely.

First of all, Egypt is now trying to

boost a lot of its

work to be an energy hub

for renewable energy, for different renewable energies,

whether it's solar energy, wind energy or even green hydrogen.

And this would definitely create a lot of green

sustainable jobs for thousands of people in Egypt.

And I want to tackle here

our national climate climate change strategy for 2050.

We adopted the climate change strategy in 2022

and its first goal is achieving sustainable economic growth

and low emission development in different aspects of life.

And that's why Egypt now is aiming to boost the contribution of

renewable energy and electricity generation to reach almost 42%

of all electricity generation in Egypt by 2035, especially with solar energy

would contribute with almost 25% for that and wind energy 14%.

And in 2018

Egypt also established something called Benban solar planet,

and it's considered the fourth largest solar planet in the world.

And that's composed of 41 solar smaller planets that has capacity

to generate almost 50MW of electricity, clean electricity.

Yeah. Thank you. Okay. Thank you.

So we've just seen your experiences of all those countries

and the expertise of course of the ILO.

Let's now move perhaps to the global cooperation, international cooperation

and maybe social dialogue.

Moustapha, let me get back to you again.

How is the ILO supporting countries, to include

social dialogue in their climate and energy transition plans?

Well, social dialogue is very important.

And, you know, in the world of work, we know it

and we with our tripartite constituents.

But what we in the office do when we go out on behalf of

the organization is to engage in multilateral environmental processes

and to bring that notion of the voice of workers',

employers' organizations and ministries of labour.

So I'm here just coming yesterday from the Hamburg Sustainability Conference,

which was convened by the government of the Chancellor of Germany.

Last year with the Director-General of the ILO,

there was the launch of what is known as a Call

to Action for social dialogue to achieve just transitions.

It was signed by the ILO,

representatives of employers', workers' organizations

and the Government of Germany, represented by Minister of Development Cooperation.

And since, this has grown into a ten-country project

where we are now working with ten Member States in collaboration with BMZ

to support giving effect to that notion of social dialogue,

as countries design their NDCs the Nationally Determined

Contributions on climate change, but also broader social policy.

And I just want to end by saying that this notion is growing.

You know, just two days ago,

we got the Presidential Climate Commission of South Africa

to sign the Call to Action and join us in this commitment to social dialogue.

So these are some of the activities that we carry in this area.

Good. So we go straight to Brazil

then what happened on the ground?

What role does social dialogue play in Brazil's approach to

ensuring that no one is left behind in energy transition?

Thank you for your question.

First of all, social dialogue is part of the tradition in Brazil.

We are very proud to say that we have, for instance,

a permanent council called the National Labour Council,

which is a tripartite council that reviews and proposes laws.

And of course, they're doing this with climate labour-related

issues. Tripartite consultations,

it's very important for Brazil and

we are working right now in our national climate change plan.

And the workshops always involves government, employers and workers.

So this is very,

very important for us, for everybody to be part of the conversation.

So as you said, nobody would be left behind.

So also we have local engagement, which is very important for us.

For instance, we have pilot community-led

dialogues and pilot projects.

One of those I can give you

an example is called "Vida Pós Resgate",

which means "a life after rescue".

And this is basically in Bahia, one of our states.

And there we have totally organic farms,

no toxic,

no waste,

in a cooperative, organized way.

And they are composed by workers

that were rescued from labour, from forced labour.

And, of course, they have all the qualifications

and the training they need to be working on the land

and producing their own things.

So basically that's what's happening in Brazil regarding that right

now. Good.

Very good concrete examples.

So let me turn to Türkiye.

What practical steps Türkiye is actually taking to make this happen?

The same question around social dialogue?

Thank you, thank you.

Yeah. Protecting environment

would not be possible without an effective social dialogue.

So, there are some mechanisms in Türkiye as well

within the government and also with the social partners.

So, the Economic Coordination Board and also Investment Promotion Board are

conducting these issues, including the environmental protection issues.

But also within our Ministry, we have a Tripartite Advisory Board,

which is very important to ensure effective social dialogue.

And this also covers the environmental protection issues

and the jobs being affected through climate change.

So, also, at the sectoral level, we have also established

a working group on just transition policies within the Ministry,

with the participation of the social partners,

so that we can deal with this issue effectively

within the Ministry.

We implement

active labour market policies, of course, develop and recycling

programmes, and also adaptation of vocational education curricula,

to these climate change issues to reflect green skills.

And also we try to develop regulatory

framework and improve our legislation to this direction.

And also we have to ensure workers' access to the new opportunities.

And all these could only be possible through effective social dialogue.

And such mechanisms help to to ensure effective social dialogue.

And, thanks to the ILO, by setting international

norms and standards on this particular issue,

we also work closely with the ILO to ensure effective social dialogue

so that these jobs, these new jobs are decent jobs and to leave no one behind.

Our Ministry is preparing

Türkiye's first national just transition strategy,

which will be announced next year in 2026.

And hopefully this will help us to include NDCs for Türkiye as well.

This strategy will help to develop this.

And also I would like to say finally, that Türkiye is a member

of the Global Coalition for Social Justice, a founding member,

and we are also taking actively participating

at the coordination group, as a government representative.

And we actively contribute

to the just transitions key intervention, which is quite important.

So these all prove that Türkiye is keen on this particular issue,

not just at the national level, but also at the global level.

So thank you for sharing those examples,

concrete examples at the national level.

And you also mentioned some international cooperation.

My question to you

Soha would be of course, what does Egypt expect

from international cooperation

and maybe from the upcoming U.N.

report to support just transition?

It's a very difficult question

no, but, let me start with the my portfolio.

Actually, I cover here environment, climate change and development

separately, but, I see like they are overly interconnected.

So this is our starting point: environment and development nexus.

So we need to have just transition, climate justice that leaves no ones behind.

Prioritize decent work protecting livelihoods and not putting

pressure on economic growth, especially the developing countries

now these are suffering a lot from many challenges in that regard.

So we need to keep emphasizing climate justice,

that's embedded in that,

ensuring principle of common but differentiated responsibilities

and respective capabilities of countries.

And to call all countries to fulfil their pledges

and their commitments to enable developing countries to be able

to fulfil their own commitments and climate action as well.

And this couldn't happen without proper

and adequate climate finance, technology transfer

that is safe, clean and feasible and accessible as well,

and capacity building in that regard.

So this is what we aim that we, that all the international community

will consolidate its efforts to achieve some day soon.

Thank you.

So basically,

I mean, what it means is that nobody can do it really alone,

okay.

Both nationally that means social dialogue is important for just transition

and energy transition and also the the international cooperation,

okay.

On that note, that's all for today's episode that we have.

Thank you for listening.

We hope you'll join us again for more conversation

on the key issues shaping the world of work.

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Until next time, take care and goodbye from all of us at the ILO.