The Future of Work Podcast

Good afternoon and welcome to  our ILC lunchtime conversation,  

going live here at the International Labour  Conference at the Palais des Nations in Geneva. 

Fifty years ago, in 1976, the ILO adopted  Convention 144 on tripartite consultation.  

The rationale was that fundamental notion  that you cannot solve labour challenges  

without all the voices in the same room:  governments, employers and workers speaking,  

listening and finding common ground. Today, 87 per cent of countries have some form  

of national social dialogue institution,  which is a big plus. That's one of the  

prime legacies of Convention 144. Fifty years on, the question is more  

pertinent than ever. We have a world shaped  by digital transformation, climate pressures,  

demographic shifts and geopolitical tensions.  So is tripartite consultation still relevant  

is the question for today. That's what  we're going to explore right here, right now. 

And to guide this conversation, I'm very pleased  to welcome Her Excellency Mrs Emma Hippolyte,  

Minister for Equity, Social Justice,  Gender, Older Persons, Labour, Cooperatives  

and Consumer Affairs of Saint Lucia. Welcome. We have also Ambassador Michele Cervone D'Urso,  

representing the European  Union delegation here. Welcome. 

Mr Ulan Tazhibayev, Advisor to the  Chairman of the Presidium of the National  

Confederation of Employers of Kazakhstan. Welcome. And Mr Omar Faruk Osman, General Secretary of the  

Federation of Somali Trade Unions, FESTU. Welcome. Welcome to all four of you. 

This is how it's going to work. First,  we're going to talk about real national  

and regional perspectives. What does tripartite  consultation actually do? Where has it worked? 

Then we're going to look at how Convention  144 is still relevant in the changing world  

of work. I mentioned digital transition,  but we also have green jobs and emerging  

labour market challenges. So can social  dialogue institutions meet these challenges? 

Finally, we'll wrap up with  key reflections and takeaways. 

This conversation is being broadcast live  and will become part of the ILO Future  

of Work podcast series. So whether you're here  watching or listening later, your voices matter.  

At the end, we'll obviously take questions. Let me start with a straightforward question,  

and we need concrete examples here. Minister Hippolyte, Saint Lucia has just ratified  

Convention 144. Why? What changed your  government's thinking, and what do you hope  

this Convention will actually do for your country? First, let me start by thanking the ILO for giving  

Saint Lucia the opportunity to participate  in this very important conversation as  

it relates to tripartite conversation. We in Saint Lucia see the whole issue of  

social dialogue as key to national development. It  is a strategy that we have embraced and within our  

government, the whole agenda of putting people  first aligns with that whole conversation. 

Why have we ratified Convention 144 now? Maybe  I'll start by giving a little brief history  

about where we were and where we are now. In the 80s, Saint Lucia's economy was  

based on agriculture, especially  bananas being exported to the UK. 

In the 90s, this changed because of a challenge  at the WTO by the government of the United States  

of America. This impacted us greatly. So from  the 1990s we moved from an economy based on  

agriculture to one based on services. And  at present we have 85 per cent of our GDP coming  

from services, with 65 per cent coming from tourism. So this impacted the whole issue of our trade,  

our labour market, and it was because of  that complexity that we felt we needed  

to put structure in our conversation with both  the employers' and the workers' representatives. 

We were having conversations before, but  by ratifying the Convention we felt it was  

so important that we're getting the support of  the ILO to do so. And more than anything else as well  

we took that opportunity in April to ratify  the Convention as well as establishing our  

first National Tripartite Advisory Committee. Now what happens when you disagree? How do  

you actually find common ground in that moment? Well, you have a typical example now: there is a  

discussion in committee for the transition. And the key thing is if you have an innate  

understanding of the work that you do. For us in  Saint Lucia, our focus is people first. Government  

understands that, the unions understand  that and the employers understand that. 

So we sit at the table and we put the people  first. As long as we put the people first,  

we will sit, we will discuss, we will  negotiate, and we do what you have — a  

give and take — and we will arrive at consensus. So I guess that's a key point, I guess, isn't it? 

How do you move from consultation to consensus? Okay. In your case in Kazakhstan, Ulan Tazhibayev,  

from your perspective, what's the practical  value to employers of engaging in tripartite  

consultation under Convention 144? Yes, thank you for the question. And  

first of all, congratulations. It's  a very big decision and very useful. 

We've actually seen the use of consultations,  of this tripartite dialogue. It's very  

crystal clear, the benefits for the employers. First of all, you can see the first effect is that  

you can participate in decision-making about  regulation in the early stage, and this increases  

predictability for business drastically. Second is you can affect those decisions  

to make your decisions better. But the most important, I think, is within  

this mechanism you build good trust relations  between three parties, and that makes you more  

prepared for any challenges that you may face. And this crystal clear benefit is clear for all  

three parties in Kazakhstan, and I think we're  doing very good progress in even deepening this. 

So you've made the case that tripartite  dialogue is good for business. Okay. 

But let me ask you, if dialogue shows a slowdown  in decision-making, let's say in a crisis  

situation, for instance, a pandemic or an economic  shock, does tripartite consultation still work? 

Absolutely. We have actually seen the cases  when unilateral decisions are made faster,  

but they are not necessarily good, and  sometimes you have to revisit them. 

Actually, dialogue is not a slowing down. This  depends on the quality of your dialogue, and  

if you have a very good quality dialogue,  you make a proper decision with less  

negative consequences and you win after all. So the main goal is to reach the point where  

you don't spend much time talking, but  you have the level of trust that makes  

your dialogue very, very fast and effective. Okay. So that's a crucial question. Can social  

dialogue institutions move at the speed of crisis? I'm coming to you, Omar Faruk. 

I want your perspective from a workers'  experience. What's the actual difference  

that Convention 144 makes on the ground? If you  can show me a concrete win, that would be perfect. 

Thank you very much. This is a very important  

discussion, especially in our own context as  a country that came from civil war and crisis. 

Accepting and welcoming social dialogue  was a very difficult journey, especially  

appreciating the role of social partners,  trade unionists and employers as active  

agents of socioeconomic – it was  a difficult one, where people would not appreciate in government,

the transitional government in our country would  not see trade unionists as an important actor. 

We have had that history where we said we do  not want to be spectators in the labour market,  

in the socioeconomic issues, but anvactive  decision-maker that sits at the table. 

And we have a unique history where  we have faced eleven years of egregious  

human and labour rights repression in  our country that lasted for eleven years. 

So with the help of the ILO, that has  mediated the discussions in the year 2019,  

we came to the table – the government, the  trade unionists and employers – and that is  

the first time that we have agreed  for social dialogue to start. 

That was 2019. As trade unionists, one of the things  

we have been demanding was the ratification of ILO  Convention 144, and our government was resisting then. 

Then we said, okay, look, it's give and  take. Social dialogue is not something to  

be afraid of. Trade unions and employers are  partners in progress. We can have discussions. 

So in 2019, social dialogue was  officially institutionalized  

in Somalia, and that is the formation of the  Somali National Tripartite Consultative Council,  

where we have three members, employers have three  members and the government has five members. 

Then we discussed how we can institutionalize  and inculcate social dialogue. 

And one of the key issues that we as trade  unionists championed was the ratification  

and the domestication of ILO Convention 144. And we are very happy that two years after the social  

dialogue was institutionalized, we agreed as a  tripartite to the ratification of Convention 144,  

and it was ratified after two years. And now, last year, it was officially  

domesticated in our new labour law. So these are very concrete wins.

Thank you. Let me ask you,  

what's the difference between a genuine,  influential social dialogue and some consultation  

process? Where do you see the difference? We always say genuine social dialogue is  

the right thing. The Honourable Minister  said people at the forefront, and for us,  

in our case in Somalia, we say people-centred  social dialogue. You need to take your selfies  

with the people. People must be with you. So genuine social dialogue is very important.  

And the difference between genuine social  dialogue and performative is the influence. 

For example, in our case in Somalia, what we  said was we do not want a fictional social  

dialogue just to tick the empty boxes, to say  we had a meeting of the employers and trade  

unions for that date and we discussed that, when  decisions were already made, when the government  

wants to present the decisions to us. We said: "nothing about us without us". 

If you want to talk about us, the labour market,  the key actors are the employers and the workers.  

So share the decision. We are decision-makers  at the table and not ticking empty boxes. 

So the difference between performative and genuine  social dialogue is the influence. If the employers  

and the workers can bring their legitimate voice  at the table to discuss, it's even good for the  

government. It even makes our government  beautiful in the eyes of the international  

community because it shows that our government  is embracing democracy in labour relations. 

Very good. So we've just heard the tripartite constituents. 

The European Union has embedded social  dialogue into trade agreements and  

sustainability frameworks. Ambassador Cervone D'Urso,  

from the EU's vantage point, watching countries  ratify Convention 144, watching them build the  

mechanisms, what have you seen working and  what is still broken? What should be improved? 

Yeah, first of all, a really warm congratulations  to Saint Lucia that you really joined. 

I think it's an honour to speak to you,  Minister, and I had the honour also of following  

the pathway of Somalia, a country in full  transition. So that's great and important. 

I want to speak a little bit about the  experience, but to answer your question,  

I think, and we heard also from the speakers  just now, it's important that we have a  

structured process. That's significant. The principles underpinning the Convention  

are key. Effective social dialogue depends  on, one, legitimacy; two, independence; and three

the representation value of the employers and  the workers, which we've heard actually just now. 

This is why I think ratification is important. In the EU – and I'll come back in a second – we're  

taking a number of steps in terms of ratification. In terms of what we are doing to make it happen,

social dialogue is enshrined in our  treaties. It's very much in our DNA. 

Article 154 of the Treaty on the  Functioning of the European Union provides  

for consultation with European social partners. We have a very complex set of dialogues taking  

place: 44 sectoral dialogue committees, which  consist of 65 European employers' associations  

and 15 European trade union federations. Some of the issues that we're closely looking  

at at the moment in terms of jobs are also the  quality of jobs. We have a quality jobs roadmap,  

also a Directive on adequate minimum wages. In terms of the challenges which you asked about,  

and I think it's relevant for the ongoing ILC (International Labour Conference),  how are we adapting to new technology, to AI?  

There's a report now being presented also at the  ILC that sees that as one of the key challenges. 

I think there it's important to have an approach  which is ethical, integrated and inclusive. 

I think a human-centred approach promoting  decent work is, for us, essential. 

Okay. Thank you, Ambassador. 

So what I'm hearing from the first round of  questions and answers is that Convention 144  

works best when all three constituents  are genuinely empowered, that tripartite  

consultation needs to be institutionalized, that  speed matters, that consultation can't paralyse  

the crisis response, and that evidence of impact  matters. Workers and employers need to see that  

the dialogue is actually changing the outcomes. So those are the practical lessons from 50  

years of Convention 144. Now let's look ahead. 

We're living in a moment where the world is in a  massive transformation, and the question is how  

can Convention 144 help us cross 2026 and beyond? And Omar, let me go back to you again here.  

In this context of digital and green transitions,  what new forms of social dialogue do workers need? 

Yeah. Social dialogue is needed  

more than ever now. Why? Because the nature of the  world of work has changed and continues to change.  

A lot of dynamics are coming, and effective  social dialogue requires anticipatory  

participation instead of reaction because that  is what helps us in shaping the labour market. 

In our own context, Somalia, one of the things  we feel social dialogue and Convention 144 is  

needed is the way we use it not only  to address issues in the labour market but  

equally in resolving conflicts and crises in  our country, where we say tripartite plus. 

Michele is here, who has been involved  in the peace processes in Somalia,  

and one of the issues that we said is that it is  not only the government, employers and the trade  

unions meeting. It's also the clan chiefs,  the community leaders, the civil society. 

So that spirit of tripartite plus, we were using  social dialogue. So it's not only something  

confined to labour relations but something that  goes beyond labour relations in promoting peace,  

stability and the transition to democracy. And in this particular context, when we talk about  

green economy, when we talk about just transition,  the key to it is social dialogue because we have  

to agree, because the nature of work is changing. And we do not want workers, for example,  

to be called when the decision has been made  to change the nature of work. No, we want to be  

at the table at the get-go and be discussing and  saying, no, this is the changing nature of work. 

And I can give you another good  example on the case of just transition. 

Somalia has become the first country in  Africa that enshrined just transition in law.  

We have just transition and green economy  in our National Transformation Plan, in NTP,  

and we have a national policy on just transition. And all this, across the board, we have used  

social dialogue to engage our  interlocutors in the government  

and our interlocutors in the employers' sector. So that's why we are saying that even when we  

agree that just transition and green economy has  to be politically, programmatically and legal-wise be

inculcated in our country, its implementation  must also be accompanied by social dialogue. 

And that is when Convention 144 is very  key in realizing in our own context. 

Ulan, from Kazakhstan, Employers  Kazakhstan, so what does effective  

social dialogue look like when you're  managing digital platform regulation,  

green job creation and labour market  disruption all at the same time? 

All this at the same time. Yeah, it's a good question. 

Actually, I think we are already facing  these challenges. We are at the stage when  

we are facing these new trends. Everything is  changing very rapidly and the stakes are higher. 

So you make a decision, you face the  consequences very fast. You cannot just  

wait and try to analyse something in the  past. You analyse something in the future.

So I think the importance of  dialogue has risen up to the sky. 

For example, for us in Kazakhstan, we  have a luxury. We have over 25 years of  

being under Convention 144. So we  had institutionalized everything. 

This is due to, and thanks to, the government,  which is very responsible for the decisions  

they make internationally, first of all. So  implementation was formally done at the place,  

then we started to build up some trust,  build up some understanding of the process. 

And now I think dialogue 3.0 is in Kazakhstan and we are trying – having in mind the things that you asked for,  

the current trends and the very rapidly  changing world, we're trying to even make  

the dialogue happen at even earlier stages. So, for example, before the three party committee,  

we will have a working group of three parties.  They have the luxury of not doing the policy,  

and they have the luxury of discussing  things before the positions are  

polarized among the three parties. So we're improving the quality. 

What we are trying to find is a fast response  for a changing world, making decisions better  

and building up trust to the point when you don't  need much time to get to the proper decision. 

Ambassador Cervone D'Urso, from  the EU, you touched upon the  

subject a little bit earlier. You mentioned AI. So what role does Convention 144 play, or should  

it play, in EU governance in this environment? No, it plays a huge role, both domestically  

in the EU but also externally. Domestically, the European Commission and  

basically all our European cross-industry  social partners are implementing what we  

call a New Pact for Social Dialogue, which  establishes a framework for concrete action, 

as I alluded to before, taken by the  Commission. It strengthens very much social dialogue    214 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:36,400 and promotes very much stronger  consultation amongst parties. 

For us, it's pretty key that we have an  institutional, structured process that, like  

was mentioned, that enhances legitimacy, independence  and the representation of the organizations. 

I think also the point of Omar is also, on inclusivity  is also very important for us. All groups have  

to be involved. It's pretty essential. And we try to translate this externally. 

Externally, I also would like  to mention, because it's linked,  

there's also a challenge of ratification of  fundamental ILO Conventions, C87 and C98. 

We're trying to link this to our trade  agreements, what we call GSP+, Generalized  

System of Preferences Plus, to make sure also  that to encourage our partners to ratify and to  

take forward important international  labour and human rights Conventions. 

Thank you. Minister Hippolyte,  

as a government that just ratified Convention 144,  how are you going to apply it in the context of  

those massive transitions that we just mentioned? Congratulations as well. 

Thank you. And I also want to take this moment to  

congratulate the ILO on this 50th anniversary. You ask a key question:  

how are we going to apply it? I looked on the board and the Director-General,  

one of his quotes says, "The future of work  will not be determined by technology alone,  

but by the policies, institutions  and social dialogue that guide it." 

And that is what Saint Lucia has embraced. That is why we ratified Convention 144. 

That is why we spend quite a bit of time trying  to strengthen the ministry responsible for labour.

Now, when you look at what is happening in terms  of the economy, you've raised quite a few issues  

that are impacting us in the future of work. You mentioned AI. We are discussing here the  

platform economy. We have the  whole issue of, the green issue of climate change. 

These issues must be discussed openly  by our government and at the table,  

the committee that is there to advise us. We need to sit, we need to develop policies,  

we need to advise our Cabinet, and then  we make decisions. We almost anticipate,  

but in doing so they would be coming to the  table with the position of their stakeholders. 

So the employers would be discussing  this, the employer representatives  

at the table would be discussing this with  the Chamber of Commerce and all the employers,  

members of the Employers' Federation. The worker representatives would be  

discussing this subject with all  the trade union members and so on. 

And as well, when you look at especially the  whole issue of AI and the platform economy,  

our young people, we must not  keep them out of that equation. 

In Saint Lucia, we've taken the bold  step in terms of we noticed that there was a  

gap in the area of finance, and we have  what we call the Youth Economy Agency. 

What it does, it allow us to focus on where the  future of work is, engage our young people – 

we have the National Youth Council as well – so that they influence that final decision  

as to how the government... Yeah. Thank you, Minister. 

So let me try to sum up a  little bit of what we heard now. 

In 50 years, Convention 144 has established  one powerful principle, and that principle is  

that governments, employers and workers must  consult together on labour and social policy. 

But in today's world, tripartite consultation is  

no longer optional. It's more necessary  than ever. I think we all agree here. 

And Convention 144 turns 50 this year.  But actually, the real work starts now. 

So I would like to thank the panellists for  all their contributions and their insights.  

This is an authentic, challenging conversation. Thank you, everyone, for watching and listening. 

We hope we will see you  again for more conversations  

on these key issues shaping the world of work. Don't forget to follow the ILO on social media  

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Until next time, take care and  goodbye from all of us at the ILO.